Feature: The Decline of the Retail Record Store
Think back to a time when you counted down the days to your favourite bands new release and the anticipation you had making the journey to your local high street record shop. For me it brought a good feeling; buying a record then going home to listen with interest (and of course read the sleeve notes). However in the year 2011 that anticipation is fading away; with the dramatic growth of legal and illegal downloading, high street retailers are losing out. Earlier this year the HMV group announced plans to close 40 of its stores within the UK, with a drop in Christmas profits one of the main reasons given. In addition recent figures show a decline in record sales; 2010 saw a fall of 12.4%. On face value it looks like the music-buying public are simply no longer buying. However in reality the truth is that fans are now using different methods to purchase music; legal downloading via services like iTunes, online retailers like Amazon and Play, as well through independent stores, labels and even the band themselves.
Whilst there is a decline in sales, the somewhat ironic fact is that 82% of album sales come from phyical purchases. Its a statement that shows that despite some peoples willingness to purchase online, a majority of fans still prefer to have a product but it does lead to the question why stores like HMV, Zavvi etc are in decline?
Alter The Press spoke to numerous individuals from several independent labels and record stores, to talk in-depth about how this decline will affect their business, how can independents survive and much more.
Rich Hughes (Scylla Records): To be honest it was a half and half really. After the collapse of Zavvi and Woolworths, HMV was one of only places to buy music/DVD on the high street, and I was fairly sure that by expanding the areas in which they operated and the lower levels of competition the HMV brand would grow and the business would be able to support all their high street stores, even if they were a loss leader in some cases. However, over the last few years HMV have been getting more and more expensive, and the shopping experience, product range (within music at least) is getting smaller and more mainstream so in that respect I'm not surprised at all. I spoke to our Distributor last year and heard about HMV's new buying methods that were really restrictive to small bands and labels and it was clear that chart music and sales were going to be their focus, which puts them more and more in competition with Amazon, Play and the Supermarkets, which was never going to end well.
Alex Fitzpatrick (Holy Roar Records): I think it was never expected. Being 'in the music industry' you always try to remain optimistic and hopeful. So when we are down to one national music and entertainment retailer, you really hope that the market is buoyant enough to sustain one retailer that has no real direct competition. Clearly this is not the case.
Jack Clothier (Alcopop Records): Although HMV did have a bit of a monopoly on the high street, and certainly had taken strides in the past to appeal to a more middle of the road fanbase... (Less cutting edge music, more mid-price DVDs). In truth though, with so many other options to buy entertainment media online – I’m not surprised that HMV took a fairly big hit.
Jon Tolley (Banquet Records): Well, that day specifically it was out of the blue, but generally, for me, no. I’ve been saying for years about how, for job security etc, I’d far rather be in our position than HMV’s. I think the purpose and good that an indie store can and does so is unlimited, but I really fail to see what real role HMV/Fopp has in music. Ethically there’s no difference buying your records from there as there is from a supermarket. Sure the people who work on the shop floor are no doubt real music lovers, but the company isn’t really that. From my, distant, view it seems that all their rebranding has been as a result of falling sales, so the diversification to DVD and games etc isn’t because the people working there got interested in that, its because of declining sales and a need to keep the stores full. Ultimately the stores’ reason for being isn’t really there any more…and with no real reason for a customer base to be loyal to that brand, there’s no reason for cash to go in the till. When I started working here, albeit it under different ownership, there were at least 9, possibly more, record shops in Kingston. Now there’s us, HMV and a second hand store. The decline has been a long term thing.
Mark Orr (LAB Records): I'm not sure in the current financial climate if the closure of any retail store is completely unexpected. I guess there was a general myth that while the independent store fell by the wayside, HMV would prosper - but I think we've all seen how the CD has been pushed to the back of their stores.
Tom Beck (Walnut Tree Records):Yes, for me it was. Walk down your average high street and you’ll see a huge amount of empty shops. Watford has around 25% of its shopping units currently empty.
Rich Hughes (Scylla Records): I think, as I alluded to earlier, there are a few retailers who are selling the vast majority of CDs. The supermarkets, especially Tesco and online retailers like Amazon and Play are always going to be able to sell CDs cheaper than the high street, and in the case of supermarkets it's very convenient. Most families make a weekly trip to the supermarket and can easily pick up the latest chart release there. For many people it's so easy to do it that way, there is no need to track down a high street chain, let alone a local independent. Most people that buy music aren't fanatical about it at all so they don't think about the artist, the industry or any notion of (the) scene. It's just a song they've heard on the radio. Also, HMV.com is a very good business that I'm sure will mop up a lot of the sales from the shops that have closed down, so to HMV I'm sure it's a decision that will work out well for them.
Alex Fitzpatrick (Holy Roar Records): Well downloading has forced down the prices of cds considerably, so I'm sure that might be a factor, alongside that missing 18% that used to be there. I remember when you were lucky to get a cd for £10.99/11.99 with most cds being £14.99/15.99!
Jack Clothier (Alcopop Records): I’m surprised at that statistic, although what that doesn’t take into account is the falling number of physical sales! Where HMV falls down is that they’re fully set up to stock standard CDs rather than limited edition packs or bumper tee deals – the kind of music sales that have actually been increasing. Also, the kids who care enough about the indie scene to buy physical music will no doubt order it from someone they feel an affinity with, be it the band, an indie label – or an ace, caring record store (Banquet etc).
Jon Tolley (Banquet Records): Well, I haven’t studied any such figures or anything but I’d guess that a certain amount of this is that people don’t need to go to the high street to pick up a CD anymore. Online sales, both from high street stores’ web sites and also direct from bands, labels and distros must be gaining an increasing market share. Im sure that’s the case with all types of retail
Dave House (Banquet Records): Also, whether it be to encourage physical sales or to simply be the "Last shop standing" a lot of these physical sales are sold at very little profit in both independent and high street stores. Some labels are putting their wholesale prices up on physical and the stores with the most buying power almost determine the price for everyone. The knock on effect of this is the perceived "normal" price of a CD is much lower than it actually should be and along with trying to go up against digital the margin on physical is tiny. We've never thought we were in a price war with HMV but they've been playing a game of online price chicken with Play / Amazon for years and regardless of how many hundreds of thousands of physical items they've sold their profits won't have reflected this and someone had to lose!
Mark Orr (LAB Records):You can probably find a statistic to back up every argument on the subject - but I think there are two main reasons for that: the top artists are still selling huge numbers in the 'convenience' stores (Tesco etc) - and iTunes sales are predominantly single tracks. I'm not sure it is reflective of the entire industry - it's certainly different to how things are for us.
Tom Beck (Walnut Tree Records):Online sales, I’d imagine. You can buy an album for £7.99 with free postage and incentives on Play.com. Whereas you’ll go to HMV and the same album might be £10.99 and you have to head into town to buy that. People will wait a few days for the CD to arrive, especially as you can make do with spotify or illegal downloads while you wait.
Rich Hughes (Scylla Records): I personally don't think the album market will ever go down that route. The reason for this is that people don't need to buy albums anymore. Most people used to buy an album because they liked a couple of songs by an artist so (they) would buy the album, and I guess they would only ever listen to those songs. Now, if you're using iTunes for example, you can just save money and cherry pick the songs you know and maybe one or two more. There is no need to buy a whole album. Of all our digital sales last year, 94% were single tracks and only 6% being full album downloads. For those people that still want to invest in a band's album, they are looking for something a little more than a zip file of MP3s. They want a package of artwork, songs, liner notes etc because they are investing a little more emotionally/intellectually to the album.
Alex Fitzpatrick (Holy Roar Records): No, I really hope not. The reason the singles market has become almost 100% downloads is because putting a cd or record on for just 1 song is certainly more of a pain in the arse than for an album. Also the artwork and packaging is often simplistic due to the low selling price of singles. Having said all this though - I still sell alot of 7" vinyl (singles) and we put alot of effort into them.
Jack Clothier (Alcopop Records): No. The single has move so wholesale towards digital because a.) people don’t really want the hassle of owning masses of 2 track CDs and b.) the record industry doesn’t make much money pressing CDs they have to sell for a couple of quid a time. The album is a totally different beast, have higher RRPs and thus more can be spent on the presentation and marketing of them. People like to own albums, especially when they look bloody lovely.
Jon Tolley (Banquet Records): Not yet. We all know how easy it is to download a 79p 3 minutes of fun. But albums are more of an investment both financially and emotionally. And I also think there’s a lot to be said for the concept of the album as a whole, rather than twelve tracks on shuffle.
Dave House (Banquet Records): I agree, I buy the odd track on download as a quick fix but there's always gonna be a group of people who have the desire to own the things they like and they're not normally the ones that focus on price either. I expect physical albums to carry on going for a long time, whether they are super cheap download combating CDs or expensive deluxe box set special editions.
Mark Orr (LAB Records):For certain indie labels I think it may already have done. Our sales are now predominantly digital.
Tom Beck (Walnut Tree Records):Most albums are similarly priced between digital and physical, so I don’t think you’ll see as big a swing in numbers. For me £8 to download something on itunes isn’t an attractive option, for that price I’d want something physical.
Rich Hughes (Scylla Records): I think both legal and illegal downloading have of course damaged record shops at all levels. Admittedly, we have recently faced a severe recession and music is one of the first people tend to cut back on, but if it wasn't for illegal downloading and the digital retail markets there would clearly be a strong independent and chain music retain business. People's consumption of music hasn't changed too much over the years but it's my worry that as the young people of the world are growing up it'll be ingrained in them that music is something that is free and it will lose all value.
Alex Fitzpatrick (Holy Roar Records): 99% of an influence. What else can it be attributed to? You can say the general state of the economy has not helped, but apart from that its purely down to this factor.
Jack Clothier (Alcopop Records): Massive! More the former than the latter I would suggest. Lots of people still buy music even if they can download it illegally, but why spend time and money to get into town to buy it from an expensive, faceless chainstore when they can buy it from the band or cheaply online. The big chainstores have been decimated, and so many idie stores have suffered too.
Jon Tolley (Banquet Records): Its certainly affected us. Illegal downloading is not cool. And I’d like to make it clear than we don’t approve of the act of doing this... Even if you DO buy a t-shirt at a show or whatever, its not your decision to decide that this bit of theft is okay cos you’re gonna buy something else at some other point. Or that a band’s 3 month plan towards getting an album heard doesn’t matter cos someone found a leak somewhere. I find people’s brazen attitude towards file sharing offensive and detrimental to music scenes they obviously care for. However, we live in a world where illegal downloading exists and we’re not really in a position to stop it., What we as retailers need to do, and what labels and bands need to do, is to encourage ways of people WANTING to buy a record, rather than focussing on prohibiting people the illegal download…. The online thing is a two-sided coin. Im convinced we would not exist as a high street record store if our internet presence wasn’t so strong. Obviously we sell a lot online, particularly from the punk and indie worlds, but the website also allows us to promote events and the store itself. So yes, the business we are in has been affected by the changing of times, but you always need to react to the changing dynamics of your business. Be that the introduction of CDs to an increased VAT rate. Ultimately you cant do anything about it, so you either adapt or give up
Dave House (Banquet Records): Adaptation is the key word, I think most upcoming bands have actually adapted to the climate better than the people that have been in music for years because to them it's all they know, it's what they've grown up with so I'm always interested and looking at what this generation does with their recorded music. I think illegal downloading is awful, I hate seeing my friends share zip file links on facebook etc. Not because I don't see the very real benefit of a band giving their music away for free (even for future physical sales), just because "the consumer" shouldn't be the one to decide...every label, every band is in a unique situation and if you really like the band you should respect them and their opinion on the matter. What will help one band sell out a UK tour could also stop another band making any more albums.
As for online shopping, there are loads of positives and we have regular customers from all over the world we obviously wouldn't have otherwise. I think the negative side (for shops) is the web shoppers constant search for the lowest price possible, you end up with independent shops selling pretty much at a loss just to be seen to be stocking all the new releases. As I mentioned earlier the chains have such buying power, indies can't compete on that.
The other factor is of course labels deciding it was a good idea to sell direct to fans, not only that, but offering incentives to buy direct. I'm not talking about DIY bedroom labels with Big Cartel accounts and no distribution...I'm talking about major's and big indies setting up their own webstore's and even cutting out their distribution chain on certain releases. When people expect us to have this stuff and we don't / can't get it it only encourages people away from real shops including the chains.
Tom Beck (Walnut Tree Records):I’d say around 50%. Record shops are always viewed with rose tinted glasses because you’ve spent X amount of pocket money in them down the years, but local one in Rickmansworth (near where I live) used to have barely any selection and the releases it did stock were around £14. It was poorly laid out and didn’t ever try to do anything but sell physical records, so there was no sense of community or support like you get from Banquet Records in Kingston. They’re a rare example of how you have to offer so much more than the latest You Me At Six album.
Rich Hughes (Scylla Records): The effect that it can have on a label or an artist will really depend on what percentage of an artist's sales have come from HMV and other chains in the past. For a label like Scylla not too much in one respect, as we have always sold more through independent shops, direct from our merch store and from iTunes. Our sales from retailers like HMV will probably not be effected too much as it's small numbers from a few shops in key cities in the UK. I imagine we'll still sell the same number to be honest. But I'm sure for the bigger independent labels it could be a nightmare. They are many labels who used to sell a LOT of records though online chains. The risk is, if they are not easy to find, people might illegally download them. It's sad but true that many music fans will only look so far before just getting it through less legal methods. I think the other major factor is the presence. When a label's stock is on the shelves of HMV there is a credibility attached to that, bands still aim to have their new album on the shelf and this will be something that happens less often unfortunately.
Alex Fitzpatrick (Holy Roar Records): Volume. The fact is, is HMV take one copy of a new album we release for each of their stores - that number goes down when they close stores. When a retailer goes from 300 to 240-260 stores, thats instantly shaving at least £750/£1000 revenue from a release, which is a big amount to small independent labels and artists.
Jack Clothier (Alcopop Records): Guaranteed distribution money. Saw the guys from Wichita talking and they made a good point that if a big release goes into every HMV in the county, then that’s a hell of a lot of units out there! However, I don’t think it’s the end of the world.. There’s an awful lot of creative ways to sell records, and with the death of HMV, a whole load of new ones are opened up.
Jon Tolley (Banquet Records): There was a lot of debate about this when the news of the HMVs shutting came out. I guess the main worry is that, if they cant shift x many hundred through HMVs some labels will just not bother to make a physical release at all. And that affects us too. And there’s an argument to say that, if you don’t have a local independent, then the shutting of your local HMV would mean there’s nowhere to browse anymore. Nowhere to find a new artist. Personally I don’t buy these arguments. I don’t think the big retailers really help you discover new bands, rather they enable you to buy something you didn’t really want. And I think that if the demand is there, people will still buy that limited release 7”, they just wont get it from a high street store, and will buy it online or from the band direct instead. As Dave mentioned above, I think there’s a certain contradiction from labels who are worried about HMVs shutting cos it will affect their distro, whilst they also sell direct from their own label sites, thus cutting out the shop middle-man in the process.
Rich Hughes (Scylla Records): In my opinion, places like Banquet are still running because they are more than a record shop, whilst still being just a record shop. Let me explain. In one sense, they are far more than just a record store, they are a destination, a hub of like minded people and in Banquet's case a really leader of a scene. They run gigs, club nights, have in-stores and it all creates a community. I'm sure that within that community if someone wants to buy a CD, I'm sure they'll be popping down to Banquet to make their purchase. This is probably why Banquet are held in such high esteem. But on the other hand, they are still true to the 'just a record shop' ethos, in the fact that the main thing they are selling is a good range or CDs and vinyl. They aren't trying to get involved heavily in computers and mobile phones, and everything else that Virgin/Zavvi and HMV got themselves involved in. It means that they can focus on real music fans with specific tastes. These are the fans that will always spend money on albums, EPs and singles.
Alex Fitzpatrick (Holy Roar Records): By being different and having a better variety of music, knowing who they are selling to and being able to sell to those people. Knowledgeable music staff are invaluable and act as a great filter between bullshit music and great music in many instances. Independent music stores are the best! As an example - a HMV staff member in Oxford Circus, London could not tell me if the Salem album was coming out on vinyl or whether they would be stocking it (it was out on vinyl, and it was released by a major label, ironically!) - and this was after the albums release date.
Jack Clothier (Alcopop Records): They diversify, and let their passion speak for themselves! Banquet Records are always a great case study for indie record shops. It’s not just a shop, it’s a great promoter too – and they absolutely love the records the sell. Sure they sell CDs in the shop, but they put together great offers, sell special editions, signed copies – man, there’s even handwritten notes of recommendation in every package… Basically they’ve built the Kingston scene!
Jon Tolley (Banquet Records): I can't talk too much for anyone else, but I think for stores to be successful in the modern age they need to provide a little something extra. At Banquet we’ve always been about being “more than your local record shop”. We try to do more than just sell music, and we run club nights (from our big indie night New Slang to the modest punk/emo night New Noise) we regularly put on gigs and instores and just try to enforce the link between live music and buying records. Kids who buy records are often the same kids who are going to the shows. So we can do album release shows and give the customer complete value, whilst also helping the band sell their music and getting it out there to as many people as possible. I guess the other stores that are doing well each have a twist, be it a record label, distro or even a coffee shop!
Dave House (Banquet Records): Indeed, it's that adaptation word again...there's been a record shop on the site of Banquet Records for almost 40 years. If we ran the shop how it was run for 35 of those years in 2011 I don't think we'd be around for more than a few months. Jon makes a massive effort with incorporating the club nights and gig promotion into the business as a whole and that's what works for us. For other indies having a deeper back catalogue or focusing on the collectors / second hand market might do it for them...but for us it's all about the community around us and focusing on stuff that we and the people around us are excited about.
Rich Hughes (Scylla Records): I think that with iTunes, a bands material has never been easier to find. So people will always be able to buy a record that they want, albeit in digital format. I agree though that the physical music product is becoming harder to find and this is obviously harming physical sales. It also means that labels are having to increase marketing spend to get noticed which obviously hurts a band and labels bottom line.
Alex Fitzpatrick (Holy Roar Records): Well we can either support independent stores, so that the option to discover great new music still exists in many towns and cities, or we can all become great at online marketing! I am over simplifying of course - bands can still build a great name for themselves on the live circuit and get noticed by press and the wider world that way too.
Jack Clothier (Alcopop Records): I guess this depends on your definition of success really. I’m confident that all the kids who shop at Alcopop don’t consider Tesco as a viable option for their music purchases. I think I bought a prog best of album from a supermarket for £2 in 2007 once – but I won’t lose any sleep over the likes of Johnny Foreigner and Stagecoach not being sticked alongside Take That in the ‘Sainsbury’s Recommends’ section.
Jon Tolley (Banquet Records): I don’t even have it on the same radar as the music we live our life to. I think nowadays its far easier for bands to get their music out there to the masses…
Dave House (Banquet Records): Indeed, supermarket's, petrol stations...I don't even have a real opinion. I don't think people go there looking for a certain release, I think that market is all about the occasional buyer with the simple notion of "having a new CD" - the less choice the better.
Tom Beck (Walnut Tree Records):This could be a whole essay in itself, but Supermarkets only reach a certain market of people. There are still millions of people out there going to live shows, record shops, online etc – so there are plenty of other opportunities to reach a market.
Rich Hughes (Scylla Records): For many years now, printed press has been having less and less impact on consumers, adverts in magazines are having less and less influence in my opinion. So people turned to online marketing, whether it be social networking, SEO, Adwords, banner ads on sites, it's all cheaper advertising that can be more flexible, targeted and ultimately can help sell music. As sales drop and financial pressures are a bigger consideration, this practice has only increased out of necessity for many bands and labels.
Alex Fitzpatrick (Holy Roar Records): It's very important - we do approximately 75% of our sales direct to fans online and then there is downloads and the various social media outlets - all of which help. However, I personally find the fragmentation (Facebook/MySpace/Twitter/Tumblr/Bandcamp) somewhat annoying and believe there should be one social media tool that has the best features of all the above in order to save me time!
Jack Clothier (Alcopop Records): It’s very important for us. A lot of our fans live online through various social media presences (especially during the day-jobs and stuff) and it’s an ideal way to get out to our guys and let them know what’s going on with us.
Dave House (Banquet Records): I think you have to have "the product" to start with, we're living in a world where we've trained our eyes to ignore things we're not interested in so all the traditional forms of independent / cheap / free advertising are no longer that useful. I think modern social networking is far more beneficial, twitter is nothing but good old word of mouth and that sells 10 times the amount of records than a banner ad ever would. Bands/shops/labels having more interaction with their fans / customers is by far the best promotion they can have.
Rich Hughes (Scylla Records): There is no denying that with cheap recording techniques, social media and the internet it's become incredibly easy for any band to record a song, post it on Bandcamp or Soundcloud and then promote it through social media. And thousands of bands have. Some are great, most aren't if we're honest. So yes, I think it has become much harder for good bands to really stand out. For those that are good enough, are creative with what they write and how they get that across to fans/industry I think that there is a great opportunity to really make something of themselves, because the playing field has really been levelled in many ways. Agents, managers, fans are not bothered if a band is with a label or management company, many times it's actually an advantage, so it's swings and roundabouts really.
Alex Fitzpatrick (Holy Roar Records): It's easier to make a name for yourself via a ridiculous promotional video, or online viral campaign, but its harder than ever to turn that buzz into ticket and record sales. Hype is easier to spread than ever, but people move onto the new, next, bigger hype quicker than you can establish any real fanbase or growth now.
Jack Clothier (Alcopop Records): Tough to say really. It means there’s a hell of a lot more noise to battle through, but once again it all comes down to creativity. Giving away MP3s and stuff is pretty much a given now, but just because someone decides to give their album away, it doesn’t actually mean anyone is going to bother listening to it. It means the tools are now easily accessible, but the band still has to be awesome offline too to generate a fanbase and keep them there!
Jon Tolley (Banquet Records): I reckon its more immediate. And its probably easy to get to a certain level really quickly. Like anyone can set up a myspace / FB / bandcamp or whatever and copy and paste a list of promoters / labels and look for shows / releases. I think the main shame with the level playing field is that its harder for quality control to work. The strength of a label’s brand and their guarantee of quality isn’t what it was, and from my viewpoint it seems there’s less sustainability in what a lot of bands are doing.
Dave House (Banquet Records): I think quality eventually shines through, there are simply too many bands in the world to listen to and the more and more all the modern ways of finding out about new music are watered down the more I think it'll shift back to an older approach...whether that be from trusted recommendations/word of mouth (online with twitter, pushnote, your local record shop) or traditional press.
Tom Beck (Walnut Tree Records): It’s easier for someone to sit in their bedroom and become noticed I think, but at the same time the competition in doing that has increased. The barriers to entry to being a well known band are still there. You still need to be active and get out to people and who them what you’re about. Myspace / facebook / twitter is only a small part of the path.
Rich Hughes (Scylla Records): Success for bands and labels is often quite different I think. For most bands, I think that they just want to be able to make a career from music. It often means being able to tour and make enough money to stay out on the road and not have a day job. Most musicians I know would be more than happy with that. In the scheme of things selling music in the form of CDs isn't massively important, as long as they are touring and selling enough t-shirts to get by. I think for a label it's a little different. I've always wanted two things from Scylla. Firstly, to release music that looked great, sounded great and that I could really believe in. And then on top of that, sell enough to break even so we go do it all over again. Obviously it would also be good to make Scylla my career but it's certainly not the most important thing. As long as the label is seen as the work of passion it is, and we can continue to release great music from great people I am more than happy.
Alex Fitzpatrick (Holy Roar Records): Not really - record sales are bonus if anything now. I'm far more interested in limited physical product for real fans, whilst still keeping that physical product as widely available as possible, and having downloads/merchandise and such pushing to the slightly wider market who may not buy physical music any more. A band just needs to engage with a decent fanbase and build that fan base the oldschool way - getting people to gigs, selling merch, and selling physical product at shows.
Jack Clothier (Alcopop Records): Yes – for a label who doesn’t do the whole 360 deal – (potential) record sales online and offline are still a massive part of what we look for. There is plenty more to it though – the live side, commitment, loads.
Jon Tolley (Banquet Records): Hard for me to answer cos im mostly concerned with record sales. Sure there’s a lot more 360 degree deals and bands pushing merch and the live show massively more than the physical product of a record/cd. I’d guess a lot/most labels would see a digital sale as being just that, a sale… and there’s nothing to say that’s wrong. Live shows can only be played to so many people at a time, but I guess its all part and parcel of “the package” of what a band is.
Dave House (Banquet Records): Again, I'm more concerned with record sales. As well as the shop I've played in several bands, done my own solo thing and toured all over and as an artist, y'know I don't really want to judge my "career" on how many t-shirts I sold. I didn't get into music to sell merch. Records are important, owning records is important...that's where the real work of a band or musician is concentrated, yet it seems to be the only thing people aren't willing to pay for. However as I mentioned earlier the younger bands haven't grown up with this outlook and to some extent are reaping the rewards of being perhaps ahead of the curve. I think of a few years ago when we were going through the MySpace boom and we'd see bands like our friends in You Me At Six (for example) selling out the Astoria without even releasing an album, it was an obvious turning point and they've gone on to massive massive things and we're really proud of them. However I still believe the traditional approach is gonna allow bands to have longer careers and make better albums but I can see it's entirely possible to make a career in music without selling a single record, I just don't personally think it would be as rewarding...there's nothing like making or owning a real record.
Rich Hughes (Scylla Records): Distributors are often in with the big supermarket chains and so will always be selling good volumes of CDs, but there are a few who have in the last few years gone bust and this may be the case for 1 or 2 more in 2011, but I think they will always survive in some form, although it's likely to be far more streamlined. They will also make money in other areas from charging labels storage charges right through to working directly with artists in the role of a label/financial backer which I believe was how bands like Enter Shikari and Young Guns have released albums. It's all about adapting, but as they are close with record stores they will always have an edge. Also, just on the basics of their business, they take a cut of units sold so as long as overheads aren't out of control it is a stable business model.
Alex Fitzpatrick (Holy Roar Records): By being progressive. In my opinion (and I'm not a distributor so this is no expert opinion!) music distributors should be looking to get credible music clothing into a variety of shops (independent stores, clothes stores etc) as well as looking at a variety of other music product to distribute, both physical and digital.
Jack Clothier (Alcopop Records): You’ll have to ask the distributors that.
Jon Tolley (Banquet Records): Like I hinted at before, the demand needs to be consumer led. Distributors and labels need to find ways to make people WANT to buy the record. If the demand is there, then even if only one shop in the land was selling the record then pretty much everyone in the country would be able to get their hands on it if they wanted it enough.
Dave House (Banquet Records): I don't want to say the stronger shops benefit from other peoples closures but yeah, the fact is the record sales will probably stay the same as people who search out records will just get it from wherever they can. When I started here in 2005 what used to be Slammin' Vinyl closed for business so we knew there would be a massive demand for Drum & Bass vinyl so we took on a member of their staff and made sure we covered the gap they'd left...now our D&B / Dubstep side of things is thriving. So in a direct answer to the question, I think the distributors will still sell roughly the same amount of records...more than anything though I think they need stronger guidelines on what labels can and can't sell direct. That's where most distributor / shop sales are lost.
Rich Hughes (Scylla Records): The live sector was supposed to be exploding into life over the last few years and it hasn't happened the way everyone expected. Partly due to the financial climate I'm sure, but I think it's also a lot to do with bands not being able to tour as there is less support from record labels because the label's sales are so low.
Alex Fitzpatrick (Holy Roar Records): It has, according to conversations with booking agents, been affected negatively in terms of ticket sales. How this is the case I dont know, it could just be economic downturn right now.....but I think people should stop expecting everything for free and get out to good shows!
Jack Clothier (Alcopop Records): No I don’t think so. Just because HMV has shut down, people who enjoy music will still go out and look for stuff they enjoy. They might just have to look s little harder. With the economic downturn I think the ‘£50 man’ who might have turned up in HMV on a Friday lunchtime to buy new CDs every week on a whim is probably just about done anyway… So I think we’ll be OK.
Jon Tolley (Banquet Records): I think there’s a certain bunch of people who just think recorded music is free nowadays. That its somehow disposable or that by streaming or youtube-ng they get as much out of an album as if they went and bought it. But I think a lot of these people then think that if that’s the case they should go to a show, because that’s what you do if you like a band! I dunno, there’s always something you get from a gig that cannot be replicated ever. Each show is unique and particularly with guitar music it’s a sociable yet also personal yet and often passionate experience. I would imagine that even if we all started to listen to music via some kind of MP3 player implant to the brain, we’ll all still want to go to shows.
Dave House (Banquet Records): I think we're in a unique position where we can associate the two things more as we sell music and put on shows, we just keep trying to encourage physical sales and shows together...however in broader / global terms I think more people are going to shows because of word of mouth, downloading, sharing and we know that. Again, EVERY situation is different but we can acknowledge in that respect a band can benefit to some extent, but it's not always black and white.
Rich Hughes (Scylla Records): I can't see the CD format dying out within the next ten years. There won’t be another physical music format and in that sense CD and Vinyl will always survive, most likely in lower volume in the case of CDs, but there will always be collectors who want to go to a shop and buy a CD or have one delivered after ordering online. I know that I will always have a CD and vinyl collection, the idea of getting shot of mine is a horrible thought.
Alex Fitzpatrick (Holy Roar Records): It will still exist in a niche fashion - in limited runs, in ridiculous packaging, and for bands to give demos out at shows. I still produce tapes and those were supposed to be totally dead.
Jack Clothier (Alcopop Records): Yes. I guarantee it!
Jon Tolley (Banquet Records): I think so, yes. And I want it to be so. Because I have a big CD collection and I like and care for the cd as a format. But for the industry and for us as music fans I don’t think it really matters. If something better than the cd comes along that we all want to use, then it will be an improvement. As long as we’re ready to react to the changes in the business then we’ll continue to exist.
Dave House (Banquet Records): Sure, I mean for what it is it does the job. If we're talking physical digital they're much better than USB sticks, flash cards or any of that stuff. Maybe there's more potential for incorporating audio technology, mixing in surround sound DVD audio or CD's being a higher quality or less easy to damage. We've tried mini-CDs, we've tried mini-disc, we've tried USB but the CD still sells. It's still got life and it's cheap to manufacture.
Tom Beck (Walnut Tree Records)I hope so.
Rich Hughes (Scylla Records): Unfortunately I can't see legal music downloads ever outweighing illegal music download sales. I think the closest we'll get is legal streaming sites, like Spotify, but I also believe this isn't a label solution, but a consumer solution. I love Spotify as a consumer, free music, legally. As a label however, it's hurting digital and physical sales and we're certainly not covering the cost of lost sales in streaming royalties. However, it's a great promo tool, and is probably helping the bands reach a bigger audience who might be investing in live shows.
Alex Fitzpatrick (Holy Roar Records): I'm guessing further regulation will be figured out to a degree, in some sense...
Jack Clothier (Alcopop Records): Yes. I think illegal downloads have hit their zenith now, and are being replaced by legal download introductions, and decent labels/bands and stores encouraging the consumer with lovely product they just can’t help but buy. People are happy to buy good music, they like to physically own vinyl, CD and limited editions – and they like to support the artists that they love!
Jon Tolley (Banquet Records): I reckon there’ll one day be some kind of government initiative which will make illegal downloading of music, film, TV etc impossible. In the mean time I think we as music fans should just give a shit where our money goes, and want to contribute to the bands and people we say we like.
Dave House (Banquet Records): I hope so too, but yeah the change has to come from everyone...the consumer needs to appreciate the gravity of the situation and the "industry" needs to do more to meet their needs.
Tom Beck (Walnut Tree Records): I think it’ll be difficult to measure this, there are so many different download sources and only so many will be accounted for. Sites like rapidshare/fileshare are pretty good at leaving no traces to what the album was or whether it was even an illegal download.
Rich Hughes (Scylla Records): Overall, the loss of a few HMV stores won’t be a problem for Scylla and many other independent labels. HMV.com will pick up a lot of the lost business in the towns where these stores are being closed, which will no doubt be more profitable to the company. I don't think the HMV group is in big, big trouble, they are just trying to become more streamlined and cut costs. If anything, it might help the independent stores who will have less competition, which is where small labels like mine often sell most records, so perhaps it's a good thing after all. However, what worries me far more is the reasons that HMV is closing, which is obviously a loss in sales which stems from illegal downloading and general apathy towards music in general from large proportions of society which firstly, I think is a real shame and secondly worrying for small businesses. Luckily, as a small label we can be flexible, quick to react to changes in the market and work in other areas to secure the funds to continue to develop new and exciting bands. I think for bigger companies the closure of HMV stores and the dropping sales could be a little more difficult and perhaps affect them even more in the first place. I think people who are real music fans, who love and care about their favourite bands should continue to buy CDs and vinyl from their local record shop and keep the indie stores, record labels, distributors and most importantly bands in business and creating the music that we all love.
Alex Fitzpatrick (Holy Roar Records): Positives; which are minimal and outweighed, are that a few more kids might look online for music when their local store closes down and therefore end up on our website - spending more than they initially thought they would, with more of that revenue going directly to us. Downsides - less physical exposure, less physical revenue, less crossover from a hardcore music fan to the average joe in the street who 'fancies a new metal cd or two from HMV' on his lunchbreak.
Dave House (Banquet Records): Some labels/bands saw the HMV logo almost as a prestige thing... we've seen bands we used to work with a lot almost "ditching" us as their preferred store because their manager or whatever wanted them to seem like a more professional band than they were. It happens all the time...the endorsements, legal info bands of 10 years ago would be fucking embarrassed of are now pride of place on websites as a status symbol.
The only benefit I can see for indie labels with HMV is that if they took a release they would take enough for every store so upfront they would have some good sales and would be on all the HMV sites worldwide etc. But I mean HMV have a better returns policy than anyone else with distributors so if the releases don't do too well the label will get a lovely box full of broken CDs and have to pay for the privilege too! I had to throw away most of my HMV returns they were so fucked!
I can only speak for us but we're open to working more closely with bands/labels and show them we actually give a shit. I'm sure other indies will be doing the same. Our web / mail order department is getting better and better by the week and our existing, regular customers are always happy with the service so any new / independent labels shouldn't worry too much...the more HMV isn't stocking, the more we will!
Holy Roar Records: Official Website|Facebook|Twitter
LAB Records: Official Website|Facebook|Twitter
Scylla Records: Official Website|Facebook|Twitter
Walnut Tree Records: Official Website|Facebook|Twitter
Alcopop Records: Official Website|Facebook|Twitter
Banquet Records: Official Website||Twitter
Photo Credit: Laura Elacy Haines/Banquet Records.
Words by Sean Reid
